Posts by Jonathan Drake

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

I'm not saying gay marriage is okay, nor that it's wrong. I'm saying the bible emphatically demonstrates free will, and freedom of choice are what humanity is all about. My point was that the bible protects your right to do anything, but indicates there may be consequences. The entire lesson Christ left was a new commandment, "that you love one another."

Thus, does it say homosexuality is wrong? Yes. Does that mean all gay people will die? Absolutely not. The judge in the bible is Jesus, he directed his followers, "stop judging that you may not be judged." It is not any human beings place to say how someone will be judged, rather it is our place to live in harmony and love and treat all how we would like to be treated. If someone is wrong, Jesus is the judge, and in the end when our deeds are weighed against us and our hearts read that is when our judgement happens - but not by any man or women on this planet. This is the bibles message, and direction - but this is not followed. Christians judge homosexuals, and are up in arms over this issue. The same is true for Catholics and contraception, judgement being passed by men and women who are fragrantly ignoring the real message, which is to never ever do the things they are doing.

And here's the difference between the Book of Mormon and the bible and Quran. The Quran seeks to confirm the bible, and nowhere contradicts it. It encourages reading of the bible and the Quran, and devotion to God.

The Book of Mormon does contradict the bible and the Quran. Thus it is impossible to be true. It teaches that God actually had intercourse with mary and dismisses the holy spirits involvement. This is untrue. The differences between the Book of Mormon and the other two are vast, and it excuses the Mormon book as nothing more than another hadith or Didache (an extra-canonical book that should not be considered inspired).

26

Jesus died for US...technically

by enigma1863 in

for god so loved the world he gave his only begotten son and then took him back.

that's not love, its a big legal loophole.

people have technically died in the past, and by the standards of diagnosing death in bible times you could definitely beat 48 hrs and return.

Jonathan Drake

@ kaik

first off, isn't your screen name a racial slur against Jewish people?

secondly Paul's letters date back to as early as the 40s and 50s ad, and he was writing to Gentiles. So no, in the first century there were many more Christians than just Jews. Further, what we are arguing is the same argument that was the issue back then. The Jews did not accept Christ as the messiah, did not accept the ransom, and denied him. The point of this thread however is not how the Jews responded. What was sought after, and requested by me, was explaining how it makes sense. I did so. The points you've made in your first and last post are just historically and demonstsbky incorrect. The second you made was spot on, but has no bearing on the discussion. It's kike we are talking about the King of Jordan and how he's on a rampage and you chime in with, "the patriots won the super bowl." Yes, that's true but......

anyway, I've explained it from the bibles perspective. I was going to come back to post the scriptures supporting it but it appears this may just be pointless, I cant tell if the thread is looking for an honest explanation or just to poke fun. So if scriptures would be appreciated by anyone just PM me and I'll put them all together.

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

@ cofty not so, not all Muslims accept it. The major denominations all follow different hadiths. Some accept none. Accepting none is the proper choice, because the Quran, like the bible, condemns any attempt to replace or override or change it by some other teaching that springs up after it.

http://www.quran-islam.org/articles/a_dozen_reasons_%28P1153%29.html

http://www.compellingtruth.org/Shia-Sunni-Muslim.html

And hold firmly to the rope of Allah all together and do not become divided. And remember the favor of Allah upon you - when you were enemies and He brought your hearts together and you became, by His favor, brothers. And you were on the edge of a pit of the Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus does Allah make clear to you His verses that you may be guided. [3:103]

Indeed, those who have divided their religion and become sects - you, [O Muhammad], are not [associated] with them in anything. Their affair is only [left] to Allah ; then He will inform them about what they used to do. [6:159]

And indeed, there is among them a party who alter the Scripture with their tongues so you may think it is from the Scripture, but it is not from the Scripture. And they say, "This is from Allah ," but it is not from Allah . And they speak untruth about Allah while they know.[3:78]

As you can see from the above, the Quran strictly forbade Muslims from doing the very thing they did - splitting off into different groups with different beliefs and following other scriptures than the approved ones (bible and Quran). So again, regardless of what Muslims believe, the Quran says what it says, the majority just do not listen, but some do - and these do not accept the hadiths.

@elaine

please read my other posts. A Christ is just a title. It means that person was Gods messenger or agent. This is why Jesus is called THE Christ, because he was a special Christ since he was also the Messiah. Moses was a Christ as well. The word Christ itself is not special, it's just a title. So every time the Quran calls Jesus a messenger it is calling him a Christ, because that is what a Christ was. Therefore it does not deny Jesus was the Christ, and in several places it actually calls him the messiah, one of which I quoted above.

and because they disbelieved and uttered a terrible slander against Mary, and said, 'We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of God.' (They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, though it was made to appear like that to them; those that disagreed about him are full of doubt, with no knowledge to follow, only supposition: they certainly did not kill him- No! God raised him up to Himself. God is almighty and wise. 4:156-158

The above speaks for itself.

In God's eyes Jesus is just like Adam: He created him from dust, said to him, 'be', and he was. 3:59

This is also mentioned elsewhere.

Let's establish what the Quran teaches about Jesus:

1. He WAS a Christ (messenger)

2. He was the messiah.

3. He had no father but God directly and is equal to or just like Adam.

4. His messianic status was denied by the people, he was crucified, but they did not kill him as they thought because God raised him to himself.

This is exactly what the bible says about him.

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

@myelaine

the scripture there in 1 john states that those who deny Jesus is the Christ are a liar and the anti Christ. The Quran doesn't do this:

The Quran chapter 3 verse 45: "The Angels said, "Mary, God gives you news of a Word from Him, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, who will be held in honour in this world and the next, who will be one of those brought near to God."

the Quran teaches Jesus was the Christ, the messiah and gods agent in earth through Mary. The Quran condemns the trinity, which I also agree with as I've stated elsewhere the bible does not support the trinity. A Christ is merely gods representative.

Moses was a Christ, Jesus was a Christ - and the Quran teaches this. There is a verse in another sura that even states Jesus death was a death "equal to Adam" which is a clear reference to the role he played as the messiah in repurchasing mankind.

Like I said earlier, many many times the Quran states it is not a replacement of scripture but a confirmation of it (referring to the bible). It is encouraged to read the bible and the Quran together, with one as a confirmation of the other. I have found no contradictions in the Quran, and I would submit if you appear to have found one, that the full harmony of Quranic verse would, together, dismiss it.

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

@simon actually yea I've said the same about the bible. Just like Muslims don't listen to the Quran, Christians largely don't listen to the bible. I defend the bible and not Christianity.

Example in current events - the bible DOES NOT condemn gay marriage. The bible says homosexuality is wrong - true. But eating from the tree of knowledge was wrong, David's census was wrong, the stoning of Steven was wrong... Point being that the bible does not restrict free will. If you are gay and want to marry your partner, the bible allows this because you are a person with free will. The bible says homosexuality is wrong, but it also says only Christ judges and we are to judge nobody, treat all with love and the way we want to be treated. Hence, Christians speaking out against gay persons, and trying to hinder gay marriage are overstepping their bounds. I would defend the bible for what it actually teaches and condemn the Christians for doing this.

as far as the Book of Mormon goes- that book is insane. I won't touch it because it is not inspired and goes beyond the bible. The Quran does not so far as I can tell, and as I've stated previously - is supposed to be taken along with scripture.

29

I just wanna know WHY ! ! ??

by brandnew in

jw
friends

i just wanna know why...after a thousand dang years, jehovah would even want to think about lettin go of the dude who started it all....satan.

why?..

like a thousand years is a long time, and people are supposed to be gettin perfect n stuff during this time, and the earth is supposed to be gettin all perfectionized.... so satan can f- - - it all up again?.

Jonathan Drake

@Brandnew

Also if you consider 1 Thessalonians, and the fact that Christ said he would return and take up the elect before John died - this leads one to the conclusion that Christ didn't assume the throne in 1914, but at some point a very long time ago. Christ himself said he would raise the elect up before john died. So the elect were raised way back around 100 AD and sealed. His reign would have begun after this, once his enemies were placed "as a stool for his feet." The devil was abyssed at this time, a very long time ago. So, we are living at the time he has been freed from the abyss and is gathering the nations together for the final war. There is no post armeggeddon test, 1914 is wrong, and this chronology in rev, along with statements by Christ and the book of 1 these all harmonize this is true.

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

@Cofty

To to tell you the truth, I must admit to complete ignorance of what the Hadith even says other than what was posted here. When I read those verses I had to research what the Hadith says and where it comes from. Not all Muslims except the Hadith. But I would have to concede that the Hadith is the originality of very bad things in Islam. I must state again my primary interest rests in defense of the Quran, not necessarily of Islam (though I do not condone condemnation of the whole group for the few). Those in Islam who accept the Hadith will likely mistreat women and do crazy things, and this I will not defend in the slightest. The Hadith does truly sound like the mother load of bad ideas, and I would submit that Islam as a whole should reform and unite in a way that does away with the Hadith for all and correctly teaches what the Quran actually says instead. A more modern translation that is easier to understand and takes into account cultural changes without sacrificing the Qurans teachings would be in order.

29

I just wanna know WHY ! ! ??

by brandnew in

jw
friends

i just wanna know why...after a thousand dang years, jehovah would even want to think about lettin go of the dude who started it all....satan.

why?..

like a thousand years is a long time, and people are supposed to be gettin perfect n stuff during this time, and the earth is supposed to be gettin all perfectionized.... so satan can f- - - it all up again?.

Jonathan Drake

If you actually read the order proscribed in revelation (chap 21 I believe), the abyssing for 1000 years takes place at the start of christs reign. Then the elect are raised, the rest of the dead are not raised until the END of christs reign. After the thousand years the devil is let loose for the final war, which is Armageddon, not some post new world battle. He loses and is imprisoned for all time. THEN the dead are raised and judged, death is done away with, and the new world, having been reconciled to perfection, begins.

This is is the actual order found in revelation. And it matches 1 Cor (chapter 15 I believe). The witnesses are wrong about the post armeggeddon test, and you are right - after armeggeddon, which takes place at the END of christs reign, the devil is permanently done away with.

24

The Iraqi Problem - an Overview and Solution

by Village Idiot in

much has been said about muslims and iraq but little historical information has been given to understand the context.

context is important in understanding anything especially with regards to conflicts.

islam and the conflict in iraq requires knowledge of at least four different parties with a general understanding of their ideology.. islam was founded around 622 c.e.

Jonathan Drake

Yea I know it'd be ridiculous. They'd have to get the people behind them somehow. But I still think, if it could be figured out somehow, it'd be for the best.

26

Jesus died for US...technically

by enigma1863 in

for god so loved the world he gave his only begotten son and then took him back.

that's not love, its a big legal loophole.

people have technically died in the past, and by the standards of diagnosing death in bible times you could definitely beat 48 hrs and return.

Jonathan Drake

I understand your point. But it has no bearing on the question asked. The first century Christians, according to scripture, did understand the repurchasing aspect of christs death. This is the point. How the Jews of the day felt is irrelevant to the OP.